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Das Boot · #**166** 11-21-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric

a) Heya/Sharam aka Decency and modesty is also applicable to men. I hope we dont disagree on this because When the Quran says " And Ask the believing men to lower down their gazes and protect their private parts" so i guess it is pretty clear that men are also advised to have decency and modest right?

b) I agree with the part of being stared at and the harrassment thingy. Because hijab does give u that benefit as well. So in one way you do agree that they are concealing their beauty right because that is what men get attracted to * we are speaking on a general level apart from the personality aspects*

c) Men may not have restrictions in terms of pardah, but i guess they do have restrictions in terms of avoiding in decent acts such as staring at a women from a bad perspectiv e and avoiding other shameful activities.
So basically in the end both men and women are advised to have modesty in them by following these guidelines. Women being asked to cover themselves and not to display their adornments and to have virtue in their heart
And men being asked to avoid indecent acts and also be God Fearing.

Sending

to strangers is not islamic..

CR7 · #**167** 11-21-2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatsup001

Its upto you to believe, it doesn't matter to me.....and the god I was mentioning in this scenario is female.

LOL.. I'm not talking about this one.. Isn't there like a god who's above the others?

Lahoriii · #**168** 11-22-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saba.

Fake degrees? declaring Ahmedis "wajib ul qatl"? not apologizing for it after Ahmedis were killed? is a hypocrite? a cheat? still pretending to be all pious?

seriously? he said that... yaar yeh kya hai emaan say lol...shakal kuch dikhatay hai, hothay kuch aur hai...iman say i did not expect this from him

Emaan Q · #**169** 11-22-2009, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric

a) Heya/Sharam aka Decency and modesty is also applicable to men. I hope we dont disagree on this because When the Quran says " And Ask the believing men to lower down their gazes and protect their private parts" so i guess it is pretty clear that men are also advised to have decency and modest right?

b) I agree with the part of being stared at and the harrassment thingy. Because hijab does give u that benefit as well. So in one way you do agree that they are concealing their beauty right because that is what men get attracted to * we are speaking on a general level apart from the personality aspects*

c) Men may not have restrictions in terms of pardah, but i guess they do have restrictions in terms of avoiding in decent acts such as staring at a women from a bad perspectiv e and avoiding other shameful activities.
So basically in the end both men and women are advised to have modesty in them by following these guidelines. Women being asked to cover themselves and not to display their adornments and to have virtue in their heart
And men being asked to avoid indecent acts and also be God Fearing.

No, haya or sharam cannot be applied to men since it doesn't mean modesty in its entirety. There is no specific word in English that could rightfully convey the meaning of haya, as far as I know. When we use the word sharam-o-haya we refer to the females. It cannot be used for men since they have different traits. Modesty and decency might be used for men but one cant use such words for men since they are feminine. As far as that saying is concerned, it is not saying that men should adopt "sharam/hiya" instead its telling them to do their part and be modest, as you call it. Yes they are advised to have modesty and decency but not "sharam-o-haya." There is a difference in meaning there.

Yes men have their own set of restrictions but I was referring to the restrictions relating to pardah which pertains to females.

whatsup001 · #**170** 11-22-2009, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CR7

LOL.. I'm not talking about this one.. Isn't there like a god who's above the others?

Its little complicated.....we have lot of Epic stories which has been passed on to generations..it says god took various incarneations to teach good things to people and whatever the avatar was is god to us.

Electric · #**171** 11-22-2009, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emaan Q

No, haya or sharam cannot be applied to men since it doesn't mean modesty in its entirety. There is no specific word in English that could rightfully convey the meaning of haya, as far as I know. When we use the word sharam-o-haya we refer to the females. It cannot be used for men since they have different traits. Modesty and decency might be used for men but one cant use such words for men since they are feminine. As far as that saying is concerned, it is not saying that men should adopt "sharam/hiya" instead its telling them to do their part and be modest, as you call it. Yes they are advised to have modesty and decency but not "sharam-o-haya." There is a difference in meaning there.

Yes men have their own set of restrictions but I was referring to the restrictions relating to pardah which pertains to females.

really? I came across such science today. How is the word sharam o haya limited to just females? I think islam came for both men and women and not just limited to specific gender. And So we have different terms for men because of their traits.?
The concept is ONE emaan and that is to fear Allah SWT and avoid immoral or heinous acts of indecency by having piety and haya which is in the end having modesty and decency. It cannot be just limited to men or women but both and even though they do have different characteristics but the sin that can be committed by both of them are similar. Which leads back to the root problem of lack of indecency and being less God fearing.

Electric · #**172** 11-22-2009, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Das Boot

Sending

to strangers is not islamic..

Jee acha , aap jaisey mullahs k barey me hi baat chal rahi thi shuker he agaye aap

Emaan Q · #**173** 11-22-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electric

really? I came across such science today. How is the word sharam o haya limited to just females? I think islam came for both men and women and not just limited to specific gender. And So we have different terms for men because of their traits.?
The concept is ONE emaan and that is to fear Allah SWT and avoid immoral or heinous acts of indecency by having piety and haya which is in the end having modesty and decency. It cannot be just limited to men or women but both and even though they do have different characteristics but the sin that can be committed by both of them are similar. Which leads back to the root problem of lack of indecency and being less God fearing.

You are mixing the terminology up therefore getting confused by two distinct topics here. You are bringing together two points that I specifically stated separately. Islam indeed has guidelines for both men and women but they are slightly different depending on their anatomy and different traits. I only said that the word "Sharam" in particular is used for females only and we don't use it for men. It doesn't have anything to do with me trying to question the teachings. It is an Urdu word which is primarily used for females. When I tried to justify my use of the word, i was ONLY and only trying to explain the difference between modesty and sharam. They are indeed different. Now I am not questioning any of Quran's teachings..I don't know why it seemed so. I am very clear in what I am saying or atleast I try to be. In Urdu, we mostly use the word "sharam/hiya" for females ONLY which is why I used such terminology and I was only referring to females while doing so because the question initially was related to females.
Again, let me be bluntly clear here. I wasn't by any means trying to question or deny the fact that Islam has set some guidelines to be modest for both men and women. I was only trying to extrapolate on "sharam" which is (in Urdu) used for females only.

komal* · #**174** 11-22-2009, 08:59 AM

Ofcourse, we do use the word sharam/hiya for men as well; just because the backwarness of our socities have made this word exlusive, undisputable measure to mark the rise and fall of the woman, doesn't mean the context is non existant for men. I think people are getting confused with that fact that the word is commonly used for women as far as dressing is concerned they're perhaps automatically assuming that it has no other varried meaning or implication for men. Most of our cricketers, politicans, dictators, bureaucrats are considered shameless, i.e 'men' without any sharam...now what does that suggest? Is because of the way they dress or its because of stubborn immorality of their characters and deeds?

komal* · #**175** 11-22-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emaan Q

I was only trying to extrapolate on "sharam" which is (in Urdu) used for females only.

Come on yaar, what is this? 'sharam' = shame, and you seriously think its only the women who are associated with the concept of shame but not men? What kind of shame in what context are you reffering here? It would've made sense had you said the concept shame is more vigoroulsy used for women when it comes to the idea of modesty and chastity, but saying the men are completely immune to this concept and its various and versatile meanings is just an extreme display of covering up for sake of it. To me the term and its message becomes ridiculously obvious when it comes to women, for example a woman in our part of the world seen without a dupatta will invoke all sorts of bitching in the name of sharam o hiya but men can literally commit adultery evey night yet get away with it because a naked eye can only notice so much of corruption of 'sharam o hiya' in men. Now don't tell me men messing around with women or selling its self is still considered all ghairatmand, basharem, naik creature. There's a clear dirty gender bias in our society.

Das Boot · #**176** 11-22-2009, 05:57 PM

besharam AND naik creature?

Take a chill pill.. Men are allowed one look ok?

komal* · #**177** 11-22-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Das Boot

besharam AND naik creature?

Take a chill pill.. Men are allowed one look ok?

And you take a eyesight pill because I wrote 'basharam' no besharam. I'm pretty sure you have enough knowledge of Urdu to know that both words are opposite of each other in meaning!

Das Boot · #**178** 11-22-2009, 06:27 PM

Ok but still take a chill pill and get off the men's case.

komal* · #**179** 11-22-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Das Boot

Ok but still take a chill pill and get off the men's case.

I had to bring that up to clear something.

Electric · #**180** 11-22-2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emaan Q

You are mixing the terminology up therefore getting confused by two distinct topics here. You are bringing together two points that I specifically stated separately. Islam indeed has guidelines for both men and women but they are slightly different depending on their anatomy and different traits. I only said that the word "Sharam" in particular is used for females only and we don't use it for men. It doesn't have anything to do with me trying to question the teachings. It is an Urdu word which is primarily used for females. When I tried to justify my use of the word, i was ONLY and only trying to explain the difference between modesty and sharam. They are indeed different. Now I am not questioning any of Quran's teachings..I don't know why it seemed so. I am very clear in what I am saying or atleast I try to be. In Urdu, we mostly use the word "sharam/hiya" for females ONLY which is why I used such terminology and I was only referring to females while doing so because the question initially was related to females.
Again, let me be bluntly clear here. I wasn't by any means trying to question or deny the fact that Islam has set some guidelines to be modest for both men and women. I was only trying to extrapolate on "sharam" which is (in Urdu) used for females only.

Orrite, but i guess in your previous post you werent basically undermining the lingual differences were you?Or even if you were then how does a basic translation of those words just limitize it to just one specific gender? I know you are not denying it but the point is that how can sharam or haya be just limited to one gender because of a translation difference.
I dont get your point as to how it can be just used for females ?